MP: You were always a great blues enthusiast, anyway, weren't you?

IW: Yeah, I've always loved that sort of stuff: going I suppose from Josh White at the centre, from whom I learned things, although he was more sophisticated than some of the others I'd listen to and learn from. But you gotta start somewhere!

MP: By this point in your story, the Colyer Band were heroes to a whole generation of 'Wanna-Be-Musicians', and I was one of them. You were role models to the likes of us. So was there something that made you inside yourself think, "This is the end of a certain period of my life; I want to move on to something else"? Was it another of your 'personal challenges'?

IW: No! On this occasion it didn't work like that. It happened in a rather odd way, actually: Mac left the band in rather strange circumstances, and I won't go into the reasons or specifics of those circumstances. As I mentioned earlier, Mac and I had become very close, and I was personally very upset that Mac was no longer in the band. So, I said to Ken, "I'm not very happy about this. So - either one thing or the other thing has to happen", again without going into the specifics. The upshot was that I left the band. I didn't particularly want to leave Ken at that time, but there were various factors that were driving me in that direction. I decided to form a band with Mac in it, so I started looking for musicians, and suddenly discovered that someone else was looking for the same musicians, and that turned out to be Kenny Sims, who was just about to leave Acker. We were both after the same people, you see. So Kenny and I decided to amalgamate so that we could get all the people we both wanted! That's how the Sims-Wheeler Band came into being, and that was in 1960.

MP: Short-lived, but a good band!

IW: Yeah, barely a year I think it lasted as far as I was concerned, but Kenny kept it going after I left. I didn't think of it as a 'Five Day Wonder', but the music press seemed to think it was. The Melody Maker and others at the time had screaming headlines, claiming the jazz world had been turned upside down as a result of all these various people leaving different bands and joining others. It wasn't just our band that was affected; there seemed to be run of 'leavings' throughout the jazz scene. Lennie Hastings left Alex (Welsh) to join me as another example, but all these changes ran into the twenty somethings, which was big news!

MP: About this time you played at the Antibes Festival, in the south of France; was that a highlight for you, playing with all those American stars?

IW: Oh yeah, we were invited to do that; it was the first one there. Sidney Bechet had died and they were about to unveil a statue to him in Juan les Pins (did I say that correctly?), which is still there of course. It certainly was, as you say, a chance to rub shoulders with all sorts of people who, once again, we'd only heard on record, and some that you'd not even heard on record! The Wilbur De Paris Band was there....a great band! The Charles Mingus Band was there, and it was strange the way they went on-stage. They'd been around back-stage for maybe a couple of hours - we'd done our set, the De Paris Band was just coming off, and Mingus was due to go on. As they were going on-stage, they all put on their coats, put their instruments in the cases and walked on-stage as if they'd just arrived, took their coats off and unpacked everything and started playing about 20 minutes later. Showmanship, I suppose!

MP: Thinking of De Paris - in my mind - somehow makes me think of Chris because a lot of Chris Barber's music is in a very similar vein. How did it come about that you moved on to Chris?

IW: Monty had left Chris, and Chris asked me to join. I do recall Chris saying there were two people on his list: it was either me or Ed Hall, and I guess Ed Hall was too busy! I joined in January, 1961.

MP: You'd have a chance to travel a lot more with Chris, and some other great artists.

IW: Yeah, I was able to realise one of my ambitions: to get to America - as it was everybody's at the time; you couldn't just buy a ticket in those days. Shortly after joining Chris we went over, and that was the start of my American adventures.

MP: Can you give us a highlight or two? I'm sure there are many!

IW: Well, mostly we played colleges around the New England States: Connecticut, Vermont, Massachusetts, but we also did New York City a couple of times. It was around 1961/62 that I started to go down to The Metropole in Times Square and Tony Parenti often played there with George Wettling and others. I got to know Tony quite well so that, this time when I had a day off, he invited me down to Condon's for a sit-in. So up I got onto the stage with my horn and he said, "Right! We're gonna play Muskrat Ramble...alright?" I said, "Yeah!" "The only thing is", says Tony, "We're gonna change keys every now and then....I'll call the keys". So by then, I was beginning to shake a bit, you know? So we started Muskrat Ramble; he started it off, then he called a key-change and signalled me to play a bit, then he'd take over in yet another key! So we were alternating in all these different keys; fortunately for me it wasn't too far-out musically speaking, so I managed to get by.
Anyway, after the session, he knew I had another night off the following week; he says, "Now, that night I want you to come down to Jimmy Ryan's on 52nd Street; you can do the interval." So I'd obviously passed this little test he'd put me through at Condon's. The following week I turned up at Jimmy Ryan's, knowing I had to do probably only two quarter-of-an-hour spots. And Parenti says, "Right! Here's your quartet." I can't remember the bass player's name.

MP: Hayes Alvis?

IW: That's Right. There was Zutty Singleton on drums and Sammy Price on piano and Tony joined in with me as well, so it wasn't that bad. But at the time it was terrifying, I can tell you!
Another highlight was doing the Washington Jazz Festival, which President Kennedy put on before he was, unfortunately, assassinated; that would have been in 1963, I think. So the Barber Band went to Washington, and just everybody was there! There are photographic records of us with the Eureka Brass Band, marching up and down with Drag and so many more musicians. I met so many of my idols on that occasion: Johnny Hodges, for one. Say no more!!

MP: What a kick! And, of course, you went to Chicago with Chris' Band, and you so related to the blues; you must have met Muddy Waters.

IW: Yeah, here again there was a story. We'd finished a tour; we already knew Muddy, because Chris had brought him over previously. So after the tour Chris, Ottilie and I flew to Chicago, checked into an hotel, Chris phoned Muddy and said, "Right....we're here; we'll be down to see you at your Club". So Muddy enquired where we were staying, whereupon he said, "No, No! You come and stay at my house." So next day we checked out and went to stay at Muddy's house. Now he lives in an area of Chicago where the three of us were just about the only white faces around. Muddy had this lovely little daughter called Cookie; she was about 6 years old, I think. Shortly after we arrived at the house, Muddy wanted Cookie to go to the shop for something, and Cookie wanted me to go with her. So she led me - only a couple of doors away - to this supermarket, and I certainly got a lot of weird looks, but it was not so bad.
Now, that night we went down to Muddy's Club and in we walked: Chris, Ottilie and myself; again, people were looking askance..."What are they doing here?" sort of looks. We stood in the corner....there was room, but nobody would make room for us. Then Muddy made an announcement to the effect that Chris was here...the man who had taken him over to England and so-forth. So then we got up and played a short set - two or three numbers - with Muddy. We came off the stage and....guess what.... we were IN! "Come and sit here man.....no, sit over here with us, man". It was lovely, the atmosphere changed like magic, and we were all just so happy.
The next day I went out with Cookie, and people were stopping us in the street: "Hey, man, heard you blow up a storm at Muddy's last night, man!" And it was just the most marvellous, marvellous feeling to be so accepted. After that, various people came down to see us regularly at Muddy's house. My abiding memory: this chap, whom Chris knew and introduced to me, came round - George Mitchell - a wonderful trumpet player who, by this time, had stopped playing. He was one of my great idols from Jelly's band and it was truly a knockout to be in his company.

MP: And of course you must have got to New Orleans with Chris at some time...

IW: Yeah, that didn't happen until the 'Second Incarnation'; 'cos I left Chris, then re-joined and eventually we got to New Orleans; I'm not sure of the date. Of course it was just marvellous, once again, a place I'd always longed to visit; even though a lot of the jazz had finished by then. We did a couple of riverboats during the Heritage Festival.

MP: How was it working with Ottilie? She doesn't work now, and I have a feeling that she's rather under-rated these days. I always found her a damn good singer. What were your feelings about her?

IW: She is a good singer, yeah. She seemed to become increasingly nervous about performing - stage fright - almost too frightened to sing, and I think that's what crippled her. I always got on fine with her.

MP: You did those years with Ken, which everyone remembers so well, then a much longer period - actually two stints - with Chris; how might you compare them as leaders?

IW: Chris has very fixed ideas about what he wants to do, although those ideas are very wide-ranging across a variety of sounds and styles; and he likes everything "just-so": tight and sharp. Ken was very much more relaxed as a leader - as I said earlier - letting you do essentially what you wanted to do and were good at. And yet in a sense they are similar: The Chris Barber Band will always sound like The Chris Barber Band, although not with the same line-up or the same people; and the same is true of Ken....it was always the Colyer Sound through many changes in personnel. Each leader put his mark on the sound, although in very different ways.

MP: Was it with Chris that you were encouraged to use your harmonica?

IW: Yes, it was. Sonny Boy Williamson was touring with us, and he taught me how to suck as well as blow! I'd sit in the back of the band wagon and do bits and pieces with him; yeah, he really taught me.

MP: You worked with a good many visiting artists whilst with Chris; who stands out in your mind?

IW: Louis Jordan was a standout, and here's another story: he was really just about the most marvellous person to work with, because he took command completely. He told you exactly what he wanted such that, all of a sudden, we weren't The Chris Barber Band, we were The Tympany Five! He knew instinctively how to get out of you just what he wanted; I've never known anyone else who could do that! And great presence: stomps up and down the stage with his saxophone; really a unique experience working with him.

MP: Chris said it was like being pulled along by wild horses.

IW: Another hero was Ed Hall: he toured Germany and Britain with us - quite a stint. One of my great disappointments - annoyances actually - concerns a recording we made with Ed; we did a duet - he and I - on High Society, and the sleeve note makes no mention of its being Ed playing with me! I am particularly proud of that recording, yet deeply frustrated that Ed got no mention of his playing this number with me. Truly it's hard to tell which of us is playing certain phrases.
We did play with Albert Nicholas, but only a little bit; we met in Demark. I had met Nick previously, in Paris. I went there to buy a horn, went on holiday with Ken actually whilst still in the Colyer Band - just the two of us, doing all the tourist things: climbed the Eiffel Tower and all that. In the hotel Ken did the classic thing: washing his feet in the bidet!

MP: You brought us back to Ken. Tell us a bit more about "Ken The Man", because you were touching on it there.

IW: He had very good sense of humour, for a start. He would suddenly burst into a great fit of laughter.....something would tickle him and he'd really let go. During that holiday I just mentioned, we had a damn good time - just the two of us. There is an abiding memory that sticks: I'd left the Band, and nobody leaves Ken.....but I had.....and I didn't see him for maybe five years. Suddenly I got a phone call; knew it was Ken immediately - that voice, you know - I said, "Hello"; there was pause....."Who's that?" says Ken. "It's Ian Wheeler"......"Oh, man, I got the wrong number!"

Gales of laughter.....

So, obviously very embarrassed, he says, "How are yer, man?" So we had a little conversation and hung up. Then, about fifteen years later, I had moved to Cornwall and Ken was playing in Looe - the next town to me, so I thought I'd go and see the old-so-and-so. I got to the pub just at the interval; the band was playing upstairs and I'm walking up the stairs and Ken, with a couple of his followers, was coming down. He couldn't avoid me so, just as we got abreast, he muttered, "Wheeler!" And walked on......That's the man! In later years we met up again, when Ken was guesting with the Barber Band. We even discussed the possibility of re-forming the old band for a few concerts but, sadly, due to the various tragic circumstances, this was not to be.

MP: A great pity indeed! You made a lot of records with Ken; are there any in particular that stand out for you?

IW: Club Session is often quoted as being the stand-out album; I can't really say if it was my favourite; it's hard to single one out. I remember being especially pleased with some of the very early recordings such as If I Ever Cease to Love and Red Wing, but I think that's because they were the first recordings I'd ever made. I notice now an immaturity from my point of view, but it was the beginning, and therefore special. I'm sure there are recordings around that I've never even heard! Material is still surfacing, like the BFN broadcast that came out quite recently, and now the stuff recorded live in the Bier Bar - very atmospheric. I had the acetates for many, many years until I gave them to Ken, at his request. Then, I gather, Ted Kendall grabbed them back to re-master! The only reason I had custody of those acetates is that I had the only deck capable of playing 13 inch records! I carried those records around religiously wherever I went.

MP: And let's not forget that you were young guys playing this music. Fortunately there are now a few young people trying to play the music; how do you feel about what they're doing and the chances that the music will survive?

IW: I do have my doubts that the music will survive, but I'm hopeful that it will. It is good to see a few youngsters playing, but you need young people in the audience, too, to keep it going. So (to the audience) Bring your Grandchildren along! I can't see the music dying, but it's very difficult to predict if it might be as big as it has been over the past 50 years.

MP: Do you feel - looking back - did the worst excesses of the 'trad boom' damage the music in any lasting way?

IW: I don't think there was real damage, quite honestly. A lot of people knock the 'trad boom' but I don't think it did any real harm. A lot of performers, in particular: The Beatles, came along saying how they hated trad and hated jazz; only because they knew they had to kill it so they could have a chance.

MP: You have done so much over the years in different styles, and yet always with your background in New Orleans Jazz. Do you have any unfulfilled ambitions, Ian?

IW: Do I have any ambitions left......? Yes! To go and build another model aeroplane!

Much laughter.....

MP: We have come full circle....What an excellent way to round this off. Thanks so much, Ian, for talking to us.

Mr. Ian Wheeler, ladies and gentlemen.