ES: Cliff, you came to New Orleans...or how do you pronounce it? (some discussion among the three about the pronunciation, set-straight by Cliff....

CB: It changes depending on where I am and who I'm speaking to. When I'm down there I say, "It's so good to back in N'Awleans; when I'm in Toronto, it's "Let me tell you about New Orleans".

ES: And the French version?

CB: Niew Orleon (with impeccable French accent!!). Or Nouvelle Orleon.

Cliff 'Kid' Bastien and George Berry with New Orleans Delight.
Photograph by Bo Löfgren.

ES: Will you tell us something about your first time there in 1957?

CB: When I got off the Greyhound, the first thing I did was put my bag at the YMCA there on Lee Circle. I signed in: $2.00 or $2.50 a night, and headed straight to Bourbon Street 'cos I'd been told, "This is where the jazz will be". And sure enough, in those days it still was - 1957. But you had to look long and hard to find the authentic jazz venues; remember there was no Preservation Hall then. There were plenty of clubs, sure, but mostly featuring good-time, commercial Dixieland for the tourists. It happened to be a Sunday night, when The Paddock Lounge - which had all black bands - featured Bill Mathews' Band. He played trombone but, earlier, had played drums in the Papa Celestin Band. Albert Burbank was on clarinet - a fabulous player whom I later got to know and recorded with. It was like some instrument from heaven....I had never heard a sound like it: on record or live. As I approached the Club, the amazing tone of Burbank's clarinet was ringing down Bourbon Street! I'll never forget that magical, wailing sound. Thomas Jefferson was on trumpet - an Armstrong disciple; Octave Crosby was on piano, and Black Happy: an old, old drummer from the brass band era.
On the Monday I started asking around to find out where George Lewis would be playing; but no-one seemed to have heard of him....and this was New Orleans! Now I was going down to The Paddock every night but, in those days, segregation prohibited me or any white from talking with the band. On breaks the band had to go into a back room....not allowed to mix with the audience in any way. So I figured I'd get there early and catch them outside as the musos entered the Club. It was Thomas Jefferson who told me George played only on Tuesdays at The Paddock. So the next Tuesday, there I was.
At that time the Band was Alvin Alcorn, Jim Robinson, George, Joe Robichaux, Slow Drag and Joe Watkins; no banjo in the Band. I thought I could go into this back room when the Band took a break, so I banged on the door; I forget which of the musicians opened the door and it was "I'm a jazz fan from Toronto; any chance of meeting George Lewis...?" The reply was, "Come on in, man". I couldn't believe it! One of my favourite tunes was Burgundy Street Blues (I had the record, of course) and I asked George would he play it. Amazingly, he wasn't allowed to play it in the Club. The owner had banned it because the tune was so sad that people didn't drink or buy beer while George was playing! So he couldn't play his own tune.
During the day I'd walk around, seeing the sights of New Orleans. Then, one day, I could hear this Bunk Johnson record playing; I was in the street. It turned out to be coming from a record store, and none other than William Russell's Store; it was on Charter Street. There was Bill Russell, who had recorded Bunk and the earlier Climax sides. So we talked and he told me many things, recommended Luthgens and other venues and dates. He told me a Band not to miss at Westwego Firemen's Hall was the Kid Thomas Band. He directed me, to take the ferry across the River to Algiers and this bus to so-and-so. Anyway I finally arrived at this Westwego Firemen's Hall. That night with the Kid Thomas Band really changed my whole life. It was a function - it wasn't a bar; there were people eating and dancing - a big party. The Band were so relaxed; they played with no intermissions and I was there for five or six hours! Every once in a while one or two of the Band members would leave the stand and disappear for a short time, but there was always a Band playing continuously. It was so different from Britain, where everything was so orchestrated: we'd play for 45 minutes, then take a break. Louis Nelson picks up a bag and starts eating sandwiches on the stage whilst the rest of the Band carries on playing. So, it wasn't just the music that intrigued me so much; just as intriguing was the visual effect of this relaxed Band.
I became particularly interested in that Band: not only for their music but also their way of doing things: free and relaxed. I've tried to use this style in my own Band: keep this happy spirit - just play and enjoy yourself. I can be playing sometimes; somebody will come in that I know....I get off the stand and talk to them. I tell the Band members: "Don't be afraid to do that once in a while".

Interlude: Mahogany Hall Stomp - Capt John Handy, 1966 (Editor's note: On this recording is probably the best ever alto solo you are likely to hear. Get it if you can.)

GB: That's Mahogany Hall Stomp by the most exciting alto sax player I've ever heard: Captain John Handy. I picked that track because of that solo of Cap's: 15 choruses, he does! And every one is different; I had never heard anything like it before. So, he is my alto influence, if you like. As I said, I bought a tenor sax after hearing the Kid Thomas Band in New Orleans; then - it seemed like weeks or months - I heard from Cliff that he wanted to start a Kid Thomas-type band. Now, I knew him only as a banjo player when I went to Canada, but he'd switched to trumpet/cornet in the style of Kid Thomas, so I went to see him and that was the beginning of the Kid Bastion Band as far as I was concerned. Cliff can tell you more about that.

CB: Yeah, I'd switched from trombone. There was another fella around wanting to play trombone with this little Band; he was better than me, actually - a lot better - so I said to the guys, "He's a better player than I am, so why don't you bring him in on trombone and maybe I could play banjo or something", 'cos I had learned about chords from playing trombone. So, I found a little book on "How to Play Banjo in Five Minutes", and immediately thought, "That's the book for me!" Much laughter....... Don't believe a word you read! I got a banjo and, after a month or two, I could play the chords.
Now this was before I went to New Orleans...whilst I was in New Orleans I started to take some banjo lessons from Creole George Guesnon, who had played with Kid Thomas and George Lewis, and actually had made some records earlier with Little Brother Montgomery, the blues piano player. So most afternoons I would over to his house; the lesson would be 10-15 minutes, the George would start telling stories and drinking bourbon whiskey. It was quite an experience!
I came back to Toronto and formed a little jazz band, which broke-up; then I was asked to join this jug band, which George mentioned earlier, doing rhythm and blues, country blues. That broke-up, but I convinced two of the fellas to come with me and start a New Orleans band; they were drummer Dennis Eldon and the bass player Max Leggett. It was called The Black Eagle Jazz Band: a pretty good little Band. We were playing traditional jazz, but I couldn't really convince the Band to play Kid Thomas style. They were all nice fellas but each had his own idea of style: "let's do this Armstrong thing, or that nice Chris Barber number, or this George Lewis speciality.... or....yeah, OK, we'll do Dreamboat (a Kid Thomas number) for Cliff". But I wanted the Kid Thomas style and sound to pervade everything we were doing.
I solved the problem by getting off the banjo and getting myself a trumpet, so that I could actually lead the Band, knowing that I would then be able to play exactly the tunes and style I was seeking. I figured they'd have to follow me, 'cos that's happens.....right, George?.....And if they didn't like it they could form a band without a trumpet! Now, there was a band led by Don Kid Chapman, The Olympia Band - Pete Savery was in it. Don broke-up this Band and quit, so they weren't doing anything. One of my fellas ran into Pete and told him, "Cliff is forming a new band with him playing trumpet; why not come over and have a listen to us?" Well, Pete liked what he heard, but I was insistent it be Kid Thomas style and numbers, so we were looking for a reed. We tried out one fella - a be-bopper - Jimmy Warburton (Jimmy the Sax); a nice fella, but he wanted to play be-bop and I was trying to get him to play like Manny Paul. We hit it off great personally but, musically, he knew he wasn't my man. Actually, eventually, he came back: later I formed a brass band, called The Magnolia Brass Band and he came back as one of the reed players. So, then, Pete says to me, "Why don't you call George?" (Berry - Ed). I said, "George is playing mainly clarinet. According to Pete, George had just acquired a sax, so I called George and he says, "Sure...as long as you don't play any ragtime!" I said, "George, don't worry....I'm not good enough to play ragtime!" One of the fellas had a little flat: Jeff Baines, the drummer; we'd rehearse there once a week and George came by. So that was the beginning of the The Camelia Jazz Band. We played various legion halls, like veterans' clubs for ex-military people. We'd play in those places for free beer. Then somebody told me about Grossman's Tavern....that would be the summer of 1969. I went down there, and old Grossman said, "Well, we mainly feature blues: electric, Chicago-type blues, but we could try the jazz Saturday afternoon; come in and let me hear it." So, all excited, we went in there and played Saturday afternoon. Grossman came over and said we could play there every Saturday afternoon; we made a deal: he'd play us $8 each. $8!!! We're there....we're there!! And we could have a free little supper; he had a little food counter there. Plus he gave us 50% off the beer, which was like $1, so we got our beer for 50 cents. And I'm still there....I'm still at Grossman's Tavern, 33 years later! George was with me seven years; then he went back to England and on to other things. But I kept going at Grossman's.....

Interlude: Panama - The Kid Thomas Band, 1959

ES: Cliff and George: now you are together again after many years.

GB: Pleased to be.

CB: Yes, thirteen or fourteen years. George came back to Canada for a few weeks' holiday. We got together; he played with us two or three times. My sax player stepped down and let George play with the Band.

GB: Someone loaned me a tenor; I had my mouth piece.

CB: We had a nice reunion then. Somebody later said he'd heard George was coming back to Canada a little while ago, and we were looking forward to that, but it never came about. Then Christian phoned me about coming to Denmark for this tour. I was sceptical at first...I wrote back saying, "I don't know....I don't think I'm the man...I've never done anything like this". So he says, "Well, what about if George Berry came?" I said, "Well, that's different. If George comes, I will come, for sure!"

Cliff 'Kid' Bastien.
Photograph by Göran Magnusson.

ES: We have to end this programme; thanks for coming!

GB: Thank you for having us! It's wonderful to be here in Copenhagen.

CB: Thanks very much, it was my pleasure!

GB: Thank you, Christian.

Record: West Lawn Dirge - Eureka Brass Band, 1951

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