CB: I am Cliff 'Kid' Bastien from Toronto, Canada and I play the trumpet

GB: George Berry from Nottingham in England and I play reeds; tenor sax on this trip although I usually play alto and clarinet.

ES: You are in Denmark on a tour and you have been in Sweden. We are looking forward to hearing something about you and your long stay in New Orleans. The first number we heard was Humphrey Lyttelton. Why Humphrey Lyttelton?

CB: Well, it was my first introduction to jazz. I was probably 14 years old. I was still at school and my elder sister had a boyfriend who liked jazz. He used to bring the 78 records over to our house in the evenings and that's how I first heard jazz. I remember thinking it was very unusual, but I liked it as it didn't relate to anything I would ever hear on the radio. I even told some friends, "You'll have to come by my house and listen to this music." From there on I think we started to hear more about Humphrey Lyttelton in the Melody Maker. Somebody would buy the MM and we would see that he was playing. Then, after a year or so when we became 16 or so, maybe we would go down and hear the band live; this was a completely new experience to hear jazz at this time. On the radio would be mainly pop music of the day, maybe some swing on the BBC. This was really revolutionary for me, I was mainly interested in soccer and cricket, I should say football, excuse me.

ES: Tell me; didn't Humphrey Lyttelton work at the BBC?

CB: He may have, because there's another thing I can remember. As I got more interested, I used to listen to the soccer game on BBC and then after the game they would come on with a sort of jazz club thing and it may have been Humphrey Lyttelton playing records; I am not sure. But they would play a mixture, not necessarily New Orleans or traditional jazz. It would be a cross section of jazz from modern at that time to King Oliver or Jelly Roll Morton. In fact, I actually liked it all, I couldn't really differentiate between jazz at that time. It could be Charlie Parker and I would think, "This is great jazz." It could be Louis Armstrong and I would think, "This is great jazz." It could be King Oliver and I would think, "This is great jazz." Or Benny Goodman and I'd think "This is fantastic," this Benny Goodman with Buck Clayton. But it took me a few years before I got it down to say I actually liked New Orleans style.

ES: You were born in the UK?

CB: I was born in London.

ES: And you, George?

GB: I was born in South London.

ES: And the jazz came from?

GB: I took up clarinet when I left school, I just liked to play the clarinet, and I liked the sound of it. I'd heard my first jazz record, Benny Goodman, and I thought "Well, that's fine. I'll head towards that," and then I took lessons. Some local friends were playing and they were talking about Bunk Johnson and I used to giggle at this funny name. My lessons weren't going well so I said to my father "I want to play jazz," as my friends were playing what they called jazz. He found a clarinet player doing a sort quintet, a good band, and my father insisted that he teach me. That was Charles Connor, he still plays to this day in England, very lively, and he took me on at my father's insistence for 12 months. He said, "You want to play jazz?" and I said "Yes." So he taught me to play jazz, which sounds funny, but it was to learn chords and arpeggios. I gave it up after a year; I didn't really know what I was doing. Then someone knocked on my door, a banjo player, and said, "You still playing your clarinet?" I said I was and he asked me, "Can you play like this?" and he put a Bunk Johnson/George Lewis AM (American Music label) on the turntable. I recognised what George Lewis was doing; it was these chords and arpeggio runs that I'd been learning for a long time. I said, "Well, I know what he's doing. If that's what you want, I'll try to do that. To this day I am still trying to do what George Lewis was doing.

Interlude: Alexander's Ragtime Band - Bunk Johnson Band, 1945

The 'Kid' Bastien Marching Band.
Photograph by Joe van Rossem.

ES:Tell us something about the number we just heard, please

CB: I came into that sort of style through a friend of mine, David Wallis. He said his brother liked jazz and asked me would I come by his house one evening; I was 16 or 17 by this time. That Bunk Johnson was one of the first records he played for me. Well I thought it was fantastic, and knew I had to find out more about all this! So I hunted around London and found a book, Jazz by Rex Harris, and I remember reading it and finding all these magical names of the jazz musicians - some I'd heard of, some not. I started to get really excited and bought this pictorial history of jazz, beginning with photos of people 'way back before King Oliver....old black and white pictures from around 1910; more magic for me!
At this time I was told that some lads at a youth centre had a little band going. I didn't play anything then, but found out they got together on Tuesdays; so I went there, met these fellas, and they invited me to the house of one of them. The first record they played for me was a George Lewis. Now, I'd heard of George because his name was on the Bunk Johnson records, but it hadn't occurred to me that he was a band leader, until suddenly here were Lewis' own records: Climax Rag, Milneberg Joys, Just a Closer Walk with Thee; I got even more excited than I had with the Bunk Johnson music. It seemed to have a more free sort of style.
Now this little band at the youth centre were playing the classic tunes: Tin roof Blues, When the Saints, and so-on. They had no trombone, and they encouraged me to acquire one. Well, I had no money, being an apprentice sign painter at that time. Somebody told me, "If you go to the Salvation Army, they may give you a trombone!" So, off I went to the Salvation Army and the man said, "Oh, would you like to join the Band? We'll provide you with a trombone and give you some lessons." My response was quick: "Show me the forms to fill out and I'll sign up!" So....I joined the Salvation Army, got my trombone, but I never went back! So, after about 6 weeks, the sergeant came by my house and told my father he has this delinquent child that took the trombone from the Salvation Army and never came back. So with the trombone gone, my father said, "Well, if you want a trombone that bad.....!" And he gave me four or five pounds to buy this really old trombone. Actually I didn't have enough money even for that, so back I had to go each week to give this man another two shillings until it was paid for.
I remember seeing an ad in the Melody Maker: some place called "Parker Studios" were offering brass lessons, so I went by there and this chap Jack Parker started me off with scales..... (vocal simulation of long trombone notes....). Then I'd listen to records and try to figure out what they were doing: "Oh, Kid Ory does this or somebody does that...". So, it wasn't long before I was back at the youth centre trying to play with these other lads and try to fit in with the George Lewis tunes they were playing. Then I really started to think: "I need to hear George Lewis in person." I just knew I had to get to New Orleans to hear him and the other bands that were still playing.
So, I left England for the first time in 1957. At that time it seemed it would be difficult to try to get to New Orleans from England; whereas it seemed much easier to get there from Canada, which was part of the Commonwealth. A neighbour of mine had a son who had moved to Canada, older than me, maybe 24, but I was told he would help me make contacts. So off I went in May to Toronto, got myself a job, found a room to live in, and saved my money. Actually I worked two jobs: one at the IDA Drug Store painting signs and a second job in a restaurant cleaning dishes and sweeping floors during nights and at weekends. This was easier than it sounds because I didn't know anybody in Toronto - I had no social life. By October, I was on a Greyhound Bus to New Orleans.

Interlude: Climax Rag - George Lewis Band, 1943

CB: Climax Rag from a lovely Lewis session.

ES: George, you played with bands in England?

GB: Yes, I played for a while with some young chaps who got me started on Bunk and Lewis. We were a little Chris Barber-ish; most bands were following the Barber pattern, and I'd listened to Monty Sunshine, and Ian Wheeler with Ken Colyer, then Acker Bilk came along, and I liked his bright, lively sound. But between each of theses influences, I'd go back to George Lewis, which I found so difficult to emulate or even copy. In time I joined another Band, Bill Brunskill who has quite a reputation in Britain. It seemed that most traditional jazz musicians in the London area would go through Bill's Band. His reputation was that he had never sacked anyone; Chris Barber, Lonnie Donegan both went through and so many who later became professional musicians. He was a lovely East-Ender....one of the nicest people I have ever met. I stayed with Bill for two-and-a-half years, and then I wanted to get married and stopped playing...."That's it!" You know! Poor Bill said, "I lose all my good blokes because they want to get married and pack it in."
Anyway, I quit for a year, but couldn't wait to get back into it. I met Don Chapman and Pete Savery and, after eighteen months of playing with them, these two said, "Oh, We're going to Canada". So I thought it a good excuse for me to leave England because I'd always wanted to travel. They went in the May of 1966 and I joined them in September. By this time they had met a few guys....they'd met Cliff (who'd gone over in 1957) and we advertised for musicians. There were a lot of ex-pat Brits over there at that time, and we got ourselves a little Band. Cliff was then playing with a jug band, doing blues with banjo and guitar, and he got interested in what we were doing. Anyhow this Band folded; the trumpet player didn't want to continue. I decided to do what Cliff had done, and went to New Orleans in July.
I saw the Kid Thomas Band which, to me, was an absolute knockout. Despite their age, they were exciting. I couldn't believe men of that age could play with such vitality and enthusiasm. Up to that time I had played only clarinet, in the George Lewis idiom but, hearing Manny Paul with the Thomas Band, I knew I had to get a tenor sax. Now, little realising what the weather would be like in New Orleans in the summer, I had to endure the August heat-wave; it did not drop below 96 Fahrenheit! We stayed on Royal Street, go into this hotel for breakfast, stay there as long as we could, then move in and out of the shops for the air-conditioning! We'd wait 'til 8 o'clock in the evening, when Preservation Hall opened, and we'd always get a bench seat - my wife and I. Every night for two weeks we sat there for four hours, not moving in case we'd lose our bench - no drink or anything, not even from the Coke machine! It was just the best experience I'd ever had of listening to music and watching these great people playing.

Interlude: The Old Rugged Cross - George Lewis Band, 1964

GB: That's George Lewis playing The Old Rugged Cross with a Band he took to Japan, I think about 1963/4. There are many recordings by George of that tune, but I picked this one particularly because in the background there is a melophone. Now, on the vinyl LP, Louis Nelson - the trombone player - gets the credit, but Josh Willis - the trumpet player - is actually playing a melophone, which is a valve instrument sounding something like a trombone. And I just love the beautiful harmony Willis creates behind George. Josh was a younger man, and I feel he creates a somewhat more progressive sound.

Continued in Part 2